Curse

Dayala · Mar 05, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Loviatar, I disagree. I think that the main thing to take away from the article is not that they refused to change/re-equip the builds, but rather after going at least 15-0, they felt they were not competative.

What is the definition of competative? You mean winning all your battles is not competative? Did I miss a day at school somewhere?

Relazil · Mar 05, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dayala

Loviatar, I disagree. I think that the main thing to take away from the article is not that they refused to change/re-equip the builds, but rather after going at least 15-0, they felt they were not competative.

That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever...

Loviatar · Mar 05, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dayala

Loviatar, I disagree. I think that the main thing to take away from the article is not that they refused to change/re-equip the builds, but rather after going at least 15-0, they felt they were not competative.

What is the definition of competative? You mean winning all your battles is not competative? Did I miss a day at school somewhere?

my opinion would be that they had been very competitive and were beaten by a group that did better planning and made it work

instead of quitting and saying they had better equipment (skill) i would have said nice trick i will have to remember that for next time

i would not simply quit after my winning streak was broken

and post an article yelling it is an unbalanced game

a BWE doesnt have time to get very unbalanced in the first place

Dayala · Mar 05, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relazil

That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever...

Here is my train of thought. The quotes are taken directly out of the article written by Renhi.

Quote:

We carried our win streak from last night to 15-0. Then, there they were. We knew they had spent the last 48 hours farming and we were a little annoyed at being matched up with the infamous War Machine.

Ok, so Renhi's team now stands at 15-0 for the weekend. I would call that competative. Also, it sets the stage that War Machine has spent 48 hours farming.

Quote:

I tell you, it was rough. They really caught us off guard, but our focus on individual control and the whole “listen to your team” thing we kept drilling into our guys paid off.

Ok, so now the battle has started, and Renhi's team is under fire, and it is difficult. However, the skill gained by his team after playing gvg in the past (15-0) paid off.

Quote:

Slowly we pushed them back, building their death penalty into the -30%’s and below. After 70 minutes we finally won.

Yeah! Renhi's team won a hard fought battle. Good job! Now, let's recap. Renhi was worried about the 'farming' team. Which team prevailed? The one with 'better' items or the team with game skill? Hmm. Also, Anet has stated time and again that better game skill is the key. So far, Rehni supports that claim.

Quote:

We had also discovered those cracks in our armor, too. There were several weaknesses, glaring weaknesses that other teams could easily exploit, in our line-up that we just couldn’t compensate for.

Oh my. This team that has racked up 15 straight victories has a flaw. Other teams can easily exploit this flaw. Really? If the flaw is easily noticable, and easily exploitable, how has this team managed to gain such a win streak?

Quote:

I’m not saying that we needed the best of the best in equipment to compete.

Hmm. That is good, as anyone can see that you were competing, and obviously extremely well at that!

Quote:

More matches followed, including a match against KOR that ended our winning streak. Those flaws in our team were painfully obvious as we battled back and forth against them.

Ah, so the streak ends. And what team beat them? KOR! Wow, you lost to KOR. Go figure.

Quote:

We were all feeling a little down after that match and not nearly as motivated as when the day began

Have to agree with Loviatar here. It shows that a team used to winning is unprepared to be beaten. Now they are down. Now they are unmotivated? Renhi's team is at worst 15-1 at this point. Yeah, that is reason to be down on yourself.

Quote:

This next battle was the first instance we encountered that a team was heavily rewarded for their farming. They had built their entire team around the skill Blood is Power, an extremely rare skill found only through hours of gambling at the exotic gem vendor. Having their entire team built around a certain skill was amazingly effective. Now I wouldn’t say what they did was over-powering or un-beatable, but the advantage they had with just that one skill was not something we could overcome without a fundamental change to our line-up. It became clear that the gap between 4 hours of farming per character and the amount that had been done on that team was starting to make quite the un-even playing field.

Ok, the author has finally gotten around to making an arguement for this article. Now I can see that a farming heavy team did in fact beat him. However, he knew going in that his team was flawed and choose not to make changes. Fine. Now, Renhi is at worst 15-2 for the weekend, and quits. At this point, I throw my hat into Loviatar's ring. You quit cause a BiP team beat your flawed team? To steal a line from Tombstone "Well...Bye."

The author ends with

Quote:

Why should we be forced to spend hours of time we don’t enjoy preparing our characters, not even to initially assemble our characters but to continually refine them and adapt our strategy, just to enjoy the very same competitive gaming that made us fall in love with that game in the first place?

Forced? When did they force you? Competative gaming? You mean to tell us, that your team's record of (at worst) 15-2 for the weekend, and you feel you were not competative? By that arguement, the Patriots lost 2 games in the regular season...they were non-competative? You beat at worst 88% of the teams you met. That is not competative?

Relazil that is my point, and I hope that it makes a little more sence to you now. The author continually made referance to how he felt 'uncompetative' with a 15-2 record. What world is that? I suppose that only teams that are 17-0 are competative?

FireMarshal · Mar 05, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

If you ask me, Renhi sounds far too competitive. Sure its fun to win, but if you lose, try and make it fun. Us in the District Nudists really tend to try and have fun NO MATTER WHAT. I've been in a few GvG matches where it is quite obvious we are going to lose. Someone from our side will usually pipe up with a comment like "We will still accept your surrender you know" or some other funny witty comment. Maybe we will even live up to our name and all start dancing Nude.

All in all, if you take the game too seriously, it can be hard to have fun. Just play the game KNOWING you are bound to lose, and you'll have a lot more fun. Even if you spent hours and hours farming, you are still bound to lose.

Loviatar · Mar 05, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

FireMarshal

you have it in a nutshell

it is a game

to have fun

he sounds like a person i knew back in the 60`s who wanted the fastest baddest car on the street but was not willing to get his hands dirty doing the necessary things to make it go from fast to very fast

he wanted a turnkey setup and never knew why a nova would blow the doors off his corvette

Whosa Skylore · Mar 05, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkam

Loviatar,

You are missing the whole point of the article. He wrote the article because the fact that the promise Guildwars made to us (about those FARMING FIENDS won't have a noticable advantage over those that just want to play the game) has been broken. I for one agree with him. But the matter to the fact is this being under a MMORPG style, and trying to appease those from both sides of MMORPG population of PvP'ers and PvE'ers, Guildwars will fail in fulfilling this promise. But I am ready to be wrong and that I hope I am wrong.

well they said that it would be preaty equal. it said in one of the ff Q-if a lvl 20 with lvl 20 starting armour is fighting a lvl 20 withthe best armour, wont the second one win? (not exact word) and i loved theyre answer here it is in shortest form A- it depends if the first one is better skilled. so its like in a soccer game you lose you blame it on the refs even tho you know they were better. and if someone has allready said this i am very sorry, i couldnt read all that, i hate reading :/ im lazy what can i say

Ellestar · Mar 05, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

my opinion would be that they had been very competitive and were beaten by a group that did better planning and made it work

No, they aren't competitive. I think i know what happened.

First, they're winning 15-0 and feel uber. From my experience, almost all players think that they're the best of the best after a winning streak like that. And for most of them it's fun to feel that uberness. In reality, that means that they're just decent. Any decent clan should win against a random tombs group, and for now most of the clans in a clan ladder aren't any better than a random tombs group.
After they got some ladder score, they're starting to face other decent (or better) clans that also have a good ladder score (that's how ladder works). And they immediately starting to see that they're not as uber as they thought and it becomes less and less fun for them to play.
They're losing and they decide that it's no longer fun when they can't easily own newbies. They definately see that they have a big chances to lose again, and they can't live with one more hit on their ego that will happen if they'll lose.
So, they just stop playing instead of competing with other decent clans and write an article to save their egos where they blame a game.

That's a loser's attidue (besides, only losers don't like to lose, winners frequently want to lose from time to time because it will make them better and it's more fun to play when you have a good competition). They faced with the fact that they have a big chances to lose and they fleed from a competition. They didn't wanted to make efforts to become more competitive. With that attitude they have no chances to compete. No, owning some noname random newbies to get a good-looking score doesn't make a guild competitive.

Loviatar · Mar 05, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25

agreed

the way i learned to play chess (and get better) was to lose every game for several months straight but i tended to lose by a smaller margin as time passed

the first time i won she was having a bad day and was not quite up to par but it felt very good as i knew she didnt just let me win

being a punching bag for the time i was losing wasnt really fun but the reward was enormous

Zrave · Mar 05, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

I think it was very distracting for the argument to whine about how they were winning until they came up against a more dedicated group.

That being said I agree with the general conclusion that there are fun-reducing factors in the game that don't need to be there, like attribute refunds (make an npc gold sink out of it?), and ultra-rare uber items.

I'd also like to add that BiP is unavailable in the exotic skill charm vendor and was obtained by exploiting the premade characters.

BlackArrow · Mar 05, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

I'd also like to add that BiP is unavailable in the exotic skill charm vendor and was obtained by exploiting the premade characters.

How do you know this? I was under the impression that all exoctic charms were at the exotic skill charm vendor.

Ellestar · Mar 05, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

I think it was very distracting for the argument to whine about how they were winning until they came up against a more dedicated group.

Ok, then read that article.
The Ladder System - Too Competitive?
Sounds familiar heh?
The problem with these articles that they were written to whine. They have some good thoughts and some stupid ones, but it's hard to comment a whining part with only intelligent arguments without a whine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

That being said I agree with the general conclusion that there are fun-reducing factors in the game that don't need to be there, like attribute refunds (make an npc gold sink out of it?), and ultra-rare uber items.

Yes, there are some good thoughts in their article. But they say that 4 hours preparation time is too much and it's not fun? What they'll say when they'll discover that they need to roll new characters to stay competitive (new PvP chars, farm chars etc)? It will take even more time. IMHO 4 hours is very fast.
Also, they obviously don't even know about uber-rares we discussed on this forum because they're saying about 4 hours of preparation, not about 1000+ hours.

Loviatar · Mar 05, 2005, 10:55 PM // 22:55

the simplist way they can protest the ruining of their perfect game is to not buy it

if enough people do not buy it they will change it to please the majority of potential buyers

i think the presales and eagerness for more says they are doing something right that a lot of people like

you will always have complainers

unless they can make constructive reasonable suggestions they should either not buy it or if it is worth buying shut up

Davion · Mar 06, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Then again; there is one thing everybody keeps overlooking in their statements. GW is trying to appease both kinds of players. When bending the branch in two different directions it isn't always going to spring back. It will break sometimes. Certain concessions have to be made to allow for the PARTIAL appeasement of both parties. I do agree that a pure PvP player will not like this game in the long run. In order to get the most out of your GvG character there WILL be some farming involved to acquire what it is you want most. This should be naturally expected. No where do they say you have to do ALL the quests to get what you want.
I, personally am more of a PvE player. I enjoy finding those neat little peep holes in the gaming world nobody ever considered looking for (something I can appreciate as well loviator). But by the same token, I found the limited chances I had in PvP during the last BWE to be quite exhillarating.
At an almost concrete 90% of the time, the one thing that will do the most unexpected thing against you in any battle is another actual player apposing you. I found that the unexpected always gives you a keen awareness of just where your skills are going. Besides, if I spend my time running PvE and do an occassional PvP to "test" them out while i build them; I am, in the end, garuanteed way better returns on my build than if I went cookie-cutter and got fuddled by its inflexability.
Simply put, I am more than willing to sow the fields to get the better harvest than I am to expect a perfect return without planting the seed.

Actually taking the time to care for the crop gives you much less chance to have a bad harvest and much more chance to prevent it from turning bad on you.

And nope.......a strick 1st person shooter player isnt going to like this gaming experience....but neither is a hard line adventure seeker. You either learn to appreciate the duality of its concept or you get lost in the singular nature you mistake it for.

FireMarshal · Mar 06, 2005, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

And nope.......a strick 1st person shooter player isnt going to like this gaming experience....but neither is a hard line adventure seeker. You either learn to appreciate the duality of its concept or you get lost in the singular nature you mistake it for

Maybe I have so much fun in the game no matter what because the only games I really played were Counterstrike/DoD, and Diablo 2.

Relazil · Mar 06, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Relazil that is my point, and I hope that it makes a little more sence to you now. The author continually made referance to how he felt 'uncompetative' with a 15-2 record. What world is that? I suppose that only teams that are 17-0 are competative?

Ah, then that is exactly how I feel.

I was reading what you wrote before wierd, and it didn't make any sense to me. Thanks for clearing that up!